At the Gate
This was really the first step toward healing. All the other emails that went between me and Erik before this email were really more about "catching up" with each other's Spiritual and human lives as we got to know each other. In the future, I likely won't quote entire emails, but rather some paragraphs/sentances. This email is different though, as it really laid MUCH of the groundwork for the road that laid ahead for God, Erik, and myself to travel Together...
Subject: Consideration
From: Caroline
To: Erik
Date: 7-3-2005
I've studied, thought, prayed, and considered what you mentioned regarding a possible end to the consequences that I've been experiencing as a result of sins committed a long time ago. At first, I thought that what you said sounded absurd, yet I wished I could believe it. I began studying on Friday night, looking for clues of what you were talking about. If it's one thing you have been teaching me, it's too look at the context, including the past, present, or future tense of every word. It's easy for me to miss those things sometimes. I can't remember every text I came across, but it seems that you may be on to something. I can't explain why others pay the consequences in such horrific ways - is it because they don't trust Jesus to cure them of things that medicine can not cure them of? I have watched them, and watched what has happened to me, and drew my own conclusions. There is a direct correlation between my sins and the consequences that I have been paying ever since. It seemed that if they must suffer, why should I think that I wouldn't? Yet I wonder about that now.
Yes, God is a good, loving and merciful God. My consequences could be much worse. Any loving parent allows their children to experience pain in some way or another as a result of their misdeeds, in order to ensure that they will not be tempted to repeat those deeds. Any parent who does not do this is both easy and stupid, and is raising spoiled children who just might wind up in prison before all is said and done. God would not be a good Father if He did nothing to teach me not to do what I did before.
This raises a question. In my research on Jewish things, I have learned a most interesting correlation between the Jewish betrothal & wedding ceremonies (1 year apart from each other) and the Cup that Jesus asked His Father to take from Him. This "cup" is symbolized by a cup that, in ancient and modern Jewish days, is brought along with a bottle of wine or grape-juice (amongst other things, including a Kitubah and a year's wages as payment of the bride-price) by a -potential- groom and his father to the home of his intended bride and her father. The four of them have parts in the betrothal ceremony, while other family members look on. There are a number of things the groom does, but the final thing that takes place is that a cup (of grape-juice, I'll say) gets drunk from by both the groom and his father, then if the brides father agrees, he drinks from that cup, and finally the bride, if she agrees, drinks from that cup. Until she drinks from that cup, she is the property of her father.
Now, it's interesting all the correlations between this and the story of Salvation. When Adam and Eve sinned, they relinquished their dominion over the world to satan, and essentially, the world became his "property" to do with as he chose (although he answers to God, and God does as He chooses anyway). When Jesus died, God "forsook" Him, and this was like His Father handing Him the Cup of Judgement to drink (this is one of the 4 cups of the Passover Haggadah), and Jesus drank it by dying, and spilling His blood for us - that is the blood symbolized by the Cup of Redemption (again from the Haggadah) which we are given to drink (through baptism). satan has no choice in this case, because he answers to God and is forced to drink the Cup of the Wrath of (Babylon's) Fornication (Daniel and Revelation), but that comes later in the world's history, I guess. Jesus is our kinsman Redeemer (see the book of Ruth), and He purchased us, His intended Bride, on the cross.
Ok, here's the deal. My first baptism - was that even real? It was to me at the time, but I mean really - remember when you said "I'm sorry!" as soon as you heard I was baptized at age 15? There's a reason you had such a quick reaction to this - you knew exactly what was going on when I told you that. It happened at a time when I really had no clue what was going on. Does God count it? It's not merely a symbol, but is a requirement to enter into God's Kingdom of Heaven, and it is more than just fire-insurance and a photo-op. It is for the remission of sins, if I'm not mistaken, and it is a mark of not only sorrow over past sins, but it is a "turning point" (t'shuvah in Hebrew: to do a 180 degree turn away from sin and toward God). I look at baptism the way I look at the veil a virgin wears when she weds - it is just a symbol, but what would she be without it on that day? Baptism is compared to being buried with the Messiah, and being raised up with Him. We are told to die (daily, forever) to sin, to take up our cross and follow Him.
So, who is my father at this point? I don't know, but I do know that I want God as my Father. The texts I've read in the last day have told me that when I am truly Saved, He (Jesus, through the Holy Spirit) will live a sinless life through me and I won't sin anymore. Am I wrong in believing this? I've seen people who claimed to be Saved who still sinned. Were they lying or deluded? Is it possible to live on this planet and never sin again after baptism? Does a person's brain really change, to where they are turned off by temptations rather than being tempted by them?
I have always said that it doesn't make sense to claim to be Saved and then go off and willingly sin. I never quite knew why I was saying this - it just made common sense. After all, why be separate from the world and yet still be just like it? Isn't there something better in this lifetime? We grappled with this issue in the first study I was present at, and I found that to be in hilariously good timing, because I had just been dealing with that issue recently. I thought you were extreme to suggest that we not allow ourselves to sin (or something like that, I don't remember exactly what you said now). Yet it sounded intriguing.
The next question to be answered is this - the consequences I have been facing; when I get baptized, as I'm beginning to think I should be (I am not comfortable calling it rebaptism), several verses suggest that I will no longer be in slavery to sin and I will be purified from all unrighteousness - can a righteous person still be punished for things that are no longer held against them? The Bible says that I will be a New Creation - can the new be punishes if it were still the old? Jesus took a great punishment on my behalf - should I still be punished after accepting His sacrifice on my behalf?
Perhaps the consequences I have suffered have been a result not only of my sins, but also of my unsurety regarding being baptized. I have been unsure for several years as to whether I should do this or not - not because I didn't want to, but because I wondered if it was really necessary.
You said that I should consider the possibility that those consequences will not last for the rest of my life. Are they supposed to disappear the minute I come up out of the water, or is my betrothal to Jesus a promise that they will end at some point in time in this lifetime before I die, and I should have faith in this?
These are the thoughts that have been running around in my head as I've delved more fully into the issue of the condemnation that I have experienced as a result of my sins. I want to believe that these consequences will not last forever. I do not see how they are good for me any longer, so you are right on that point. The sins that I committed that caused these consequences were done long ago and I have turned from them - only the consequences remain in my life. Is this because I should be baptized, and drink that Cup of Redemption, which through the baptism I'm considering, I have not yet drunk? I have drunk they symbolic Cup of Redemption during the Passover Seder, but I believe it is only a symbol, and that baptism is the real thing.
If I do get baptized, I want it to be very different from a standard SDA baptism. I want it to be a cross between a Mikvah, a Betrothal ceremony, and a Bat Mitzvah, taking all the appropriate elements of each and making something unique and fun out of it - a real celebration of Redemption. And I don't want to be baptized in a church by some common ordained minister who would not understand my unusual perspective regarding the Jewishness of so many Biblical things. I want it to be in a real body of water, not some tank with chlorinated water, and the only people I want to invite are people who actually care about me and what goes on in my life. When I was baptized at PUC, no one really cared about it, or about my Spirituality. All anyone cared about was what I looked like and what doctrines I believed, or they didn't care at all.
So that is the real question - should I get baptized or not? Is my first baptism void in God's eyes because it was so riddled with stupidity? Did I just take a common bath in front of a thousand or so people? Sometimes it feels that way. As for my membership record, like Paul, I count it as garbage, and I do not boast in it. I don't care about some GC database with my name in it, although I'm sure that my baptism would make quite a problem for them. First of all, what do they do about my old baptism? I'm sure they would debate over that for awhile, then they would have answer the question of whether I am an Adventist Christian or a Jewish Adventist! That might take a year of their time, all for the sake of some stupid database that I suspect God doesn't care too much about anyway (He's got bigger problems to worry about, such as the lives of the people who run the databases, and the lives of the people mentioned in those databases, I think).
I guess I'm leaning toward getting baptized, but I'm unsure about all the questions I've posed in this email. I would like to study them out further. If you want to suggest some passages for me to study, please do. Thank you for praying about me, and for caring about what happens to me. Please continue to pray for me - satan has been harassing me much of the time, whenever possible.
How did your survival trip in Idaho go? Did you learn anything about God while you were there? I hope you had a good time.
God bless you,
Caroline
Subject: Consideration
From: Caroline
To: Erik
Date: 7-3-2005
I've studied, thought, prayed, and considered what you mentioned regarding a possible end to the consequences that I've been experiencing as a result of sins committed a long time ago. At first, I thought that what you said sounded absurd, yet I wished I could believe it. I began studying on Friday night, looking for clues of what you were talking about. If it's one thing you have been teaching me, it's too look at the context, including the past, present, or future tense of every word. It's easy for me to miss those things sometimes. I can't remember every text I came across, but it seems that you may be on to something. I can't explain why others pay the consequences in such horrific ways - is it because they don't trust Jesus to cure them of things that medicine can not cure them of? I have watched them, and watched what has happened to me, and drew my own conclusions. There is a direct correlation between my sins and the consequences that I have been paying ever since. It seemed that if they must suffer, why should I think that I wouldn't? Yet I wonder about that now.
Yes, God is a good, loving and merciful God. My consequences could be much worse. Any loving parent allows their children to experience pain in some way or another as a result of their misdeeds, in order to ensure that they will not be tempted to repeat those deeds. Any parent who does not do this is both easy and stupid, and is raising spoiled children who just might wind up in prison before all is said and done. God would not be a good Father if He did nothing to teach me not to do what I did before.
This raises a question. In my research on Jewish things, I have learned a most interesting correlation between the Jewish betrothal & wedding ceremonies (1 year apart from each other) and the Cup that Jesus asked His Father to take from Him. This "cup" is symbolized by a cup that, in ancient and modern Jewish days, is brought along with a bottle of wine or grape-juice (amongst other things, including a Kitubah and a year's wages as payment of the bride-price) by a -potential- groom and his father to the home of his intended bride and her father. The four of them have parts in the betrothal ceremony, while other family members look on. There are a number of things the groom does, but the final thing that takes place is that a cup (of grape-juice, I'll say) gets drunk from by both the groom and his father, then if the brides father agrees, he drinks from that cup, and finally the bride, if she agrees, drinks from that cup. Until she drinks from that cup, she is the property of her father.
Now, it's interesting all the correlations between this and the story of Salvation. When Adam and Eve sinned, they relinquished their dominion over the world to satan, and essentially, the world became his "property" to do with as he chose (although he answers to God, and God does as He chooses anyway). When Jesus died, God "forsook" Him, and this was like His Father handing Him the Cup of Judgement to drink (this is one of the 4 cups of the Passover Haggadah), and Jesus drank it by dying, and spilling His blood for us - that is the blood symbolized by the Cup of Redemption (again from the Haggadah) which we are given to drink (through baptism). satan has no choice in this case, because he answers to God and is forced to drink the Cup of the Wrath of (Babylon's) Fornication (Daniel and Revelation), but that comes later in the world's history, I guess. Jesus is our kinsman Redeemer (see the book of Ruth), and He purchased us, His intended Bride, on the cross.
Ok, here's the deal. My first baptism - was that even real? It was to me at the time, but I mean really - remember when you said "I'm sorry!" as soon as you heard I was baptized at age 15? There's a reason you had such a quick reaction to this - you knew exactly what was going on when I told you that. It happened at a time when I really had no clue what was going on. Does God count it? It's not merely a symbol, but is a requirement to enter into God's Kingdom of Heaven, and it is more than just fire-insurance and a photo-op. It is for the remission of sins, if I'm not mistaken, and it is a mark of not only sorrow over past sins, but it is a "turning point" (t'shuvah in Hebrew: to do a 180 degree turn away from sin and toward God). I look at baptism the way I look at the veil a virgin wears when she weds - it is just a symbol, but what would she be without it on that day? Baptism is compared to being buried with the Messiah, and being raised up with Him. We are told to die (daily, forever) to sin, to take up our cross and follow Him.
So, who is my father at this point? I don't know, but I do know that I want God as my Father. The texts I've read in the last day have told me that when I am truly Saved, He (Jesus, through the Holy Spirit) will live a sinless life through me and I won't sin anymore. Am I wrong in believing this? I've seen people who claimed to be Saved who still sinned. Were they lying or deluded? Is it possible to live on this planet and never sin again after baptism? Does a person's brain really change, to where they are turned off by temptations rather than being tempted by them?
I have always said that it doesn't make sense to claim to be Saved and then go off and willingly sin. I never quite knew why I was saying this - it just made common sense. After all, why be separate from the world and yet still be just like it? Isn't there something better in this lifetime? We grappled with this issue in the first study I was present at, and I found that to be in hilariously good timing, because I had just been dealing with that issue recently. I thought you were extreme to suggest that we not allow ourselves to sin (or something like that, I don't remember exactly what you said now). Yet it sounded intriguing.
The next question to be answered is this - the consequences I have been facing; when I get baptized, as I'm beginning to think I should be (I am not comfortable calling it rebaptism), several verses suggest that I will no longer be in slavery to sin and I will be purified from all unrighteousness - can a righteous person still be punished for things that are no longer held against them? The Bible says that I will be a New Creation - can the new be punishes if it were still the old? Jesus took a great punishment on my behalf - should I still be punished after accepting His sacrifice on my behalf?
Perhaps the consequences I have suffered have been a result not only of my sins, but also of my unsurety regarding being baptized. I have been unsure for several years as to whether I should do this or not - not because I didn't want to, but because I wondered if it was really necessary.
You said that I should consider the possibility that those consequences will not last for the rest of my life. Are they supposed to disappear the minute I come up out of the water, or is my betrothal to Jesus a promise that they will end at some point in time in this lifetime before I die, and I should have faith in this?
These are the thoughts that have been running around in my head as I've delved more fully into the issue of the condemnation that I have experienced as a result of my sins. I want to believe that these consequences will not last forever. I do not see how they are good for me any longer, so you are right on that point. The sins that I committed that caused these consequences were done long ago and I have turned from them - only the consequences remain in my life. Is this because I should be baptized, and drink that Cup of Redemption, which through the baptism I'm considering, I have not yet drunk? I have drunk they symbolic Cup of Redemption during the Passover Seder, but I believe it is only a symbol, and that baptism is the real thing.
If I do get baptized, I want it to be very different from a standard SDA baptism. I want it to be a cross between a Mikvah, a Betrothal ceremony, and a Bat Mitzvah, taking all the appropriate elements of each and making something unique and fun out of it - a real celebration of Redemption. And I don't want to be baptized in a church by some common ordained minister who would not understand my unusual perspective regarding the Jewishness of so many Biblical things. I want it to be in a real body of water, not some tank with chlorinated water, and the only people I want to invite are people who actually care about me and what goes on in my life. When I was baptized at PUC, no one really cared about it, or about my Spirituality. All anyone cared about was what I looked like and what doctrines I believed, or they didn't care at all.
So that is the real question - should I get baptized or not? Is my first baptism void in God's eyes because it was so riddled with stupidity? Did I just take a common bath in front of a thousand or so people? Sometimes it feels that way. As for my membership record, like Paul, I count it as garbage, and I do not boast in it. I don't care about some GC database with my name in it, although I'm sure that my baptism would make quite a problem for them. First of all, what do they do about my old baptism? I'm sure they would debate over that for awhile, then they would have answer the question of whether I am an Adventist Christian or a Jewish Adventist! That might take a year of their time, all for the sake of some stupid database that I suspect God doesn't care too much about anyway (He's got bigger problems to worry about, such as the lives of the people who run the databases, and the lives of the people mentioned in those databases, I think).
I guess I'm leaning toward getting baptized, but I'm unsure about all the questions I've posed in this email. I would like to study them out further. If you want to suggest some passages for me to study, please do. Thank you for praying about me, and for caring about what happens to me. Please continue to pray for me - satan has been harassing me much of the time, whenever possible.
How did your survival trip in Idaho go? Did you learn anything about God while you were there? I hope you had a good time.
God bless you,
Caroline
posted by Caroline Talita Ishshah | 5:53 AM
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